Curse

Konig Des Todes · Sep 12, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Introduction

I used search, searched many many different words to try to find a thread like this. But, although related, the closest I have found as the actual topic for the thread was simply "increase the hero limit." As I don't know if this has been said. If the exact idea was, go ahead and close mods, if it's similar enough to get merged into another thread, go ahead and merge. I just want to get this exact idea out.

OK! So everyone knows about the "no limit on hero" argument that has been going on since who knows when anymore. Well, this is a slight alteration of that idea. Do I want an increase of the hero limit? Yes. But is that the main point of this thread? No. The main point of this thread is "what to do to the henchmen if the limit on heroes is removed/changed." And, to offer a suggestion that will give those who have Prophecies and/or Factions only.

The Suggestion

My suggestion is the removal of all henchmen, but changing some into heroes for the campaign they are in. In addition, removing some of the Nightfall heroes (just the non-storyline needing ones) from the list of heroes. The complete henchmen list can be found here.

Step 1: Removal/Change of some heroes (to make room)
Now, in the end, I will have no more then 10 per campaign, and 7 Core heroes. How will I do this? Just wait and see.

Heroes to remove:
Norgu
Goren
Acolyte Sousuke
Acolyte Jin
Zenmai

Heroes to move:
Olias (make him obtainable in Prophecies, without the need of Nightfall)
Razah (Make him a Core hero, I will get to him soon)

Fixing what remains of Nightfall Heroes.

Now, with that, we now have 8 Nightfall heroes. But, Oh no! We have two monks and no mesmer. What will we do! Here is what:

Change Talkora's profession to a Mesmer. The change should not be too much. Most of Tahlkora's dialogue is towards Lyssa as it is, seeing how she is a follower of Lyssa, as all/most Vabbians are. So very few things are needed to be changed in her idle dialogue, and just a revision of quests that talk about/deal with Tahlkora are needed to have a look through.

For a little customization, for new characters, I even suggest adding Abasi automatically as a Ranger Hero for those who choose Master of Whispers in the storyline, and a new Necromancer hero for those who choose Margrid (perhaps a Corsair Necromancer). This will give more difference between people's characters. Those that already have both, will just keep both.

Step 2: New Core Heroes

Now we all know about M.O.X., the first true core hero. Let's add to it. Here are some henchmen who are in all 4 games:

Devona
Mhenlo
Cynn
Aiden
Eve

For Factions, Mhenlo would just be "unable to be in the party" or simply renamed to "Ascalonian Monk," same for when a double is around.

But before I said I'd have 7 core heroes. Right now we only have 6. So who is to be the 7th?

Razah

As I said, I think he should be moved to be a Core hero. How to do this? Well, it could go two ways. Either 1. Make it like M.O.X., a multi-campaign needing hero, or 2. Move his location to a new core location.

Going with the first way would make it much easier, and if my suggestions get put in, that would probably be the best for time. However, for the sake of argument, I shall give an idea for the second way.

Add a new outpost and explorable area to the Realm of Torment, which is only accessed (for the first time) via the Underworld (mainly, the Reaper of the Bone Pits, as there is a way to the Realm of Torment from the Bone Pits).

With Razah being the 7th core hero, there are 5 of the 6 core professions, then one profession from each expansion. Only thing mission would be a mesmer hero, which can be added as a Zaishen who decides to follow the heroes (much like Acolyte Sousuke/Jin do). Of course, the mesmer would be obtained somewhere on the Battle Isles.

Step 3: Prophecies Henchmen to Heroes

First, a list of Prophecies Henchmen:

Little Thom (W)
Stefan (W)
Reyna (R)
Alesia (Mo)
Lina (Mo)
Claude (N)
Dunham (Me)
Orion (E)

And let's not forget Olias, who I said to move to a Prophecies Hero.

Now, we have an issue, two monks, two warriors, two necromancers, no ritualist/assassin/dervish/paragon.

The answer to this problem is simple. That way being that you choose between Stefan and Thom, Alesia and Lina, Claude and Olias. No need for Factions or Nightfall, and there won't be any expansion professions added.

So here is what we have with this idea:

Warrior: Little Thom/Stefan (Obtained by a quest at Yak's Bend)
Monk: Lina/Alesia (Obtained from Adventure with an Ally in pre/Warmaster Tydus)
Ranger: Reyna (Obtained in leaving Pre-searing/Warmaster Tydus)
Mesmer: Dunham (Obtained at Fort Ranik)
Necromancer: Claude/Olias (Obtained in Kryta after completion of Bloodstone Fen)
Elementalist: Orion (Obtained in Eastern Front Gate)

That settles the Prophecies henchmen.

Step 4: Factions Henchmen to heroes

This is the most "fun" to look through. Since there is a LARGE amount of henchmen in Factions, with constant switching, there is a lot of chances for customization. This mainly includes mutually exclusive heroes between Kurzick and Luxon henchmen.

Kurzick Henchmen:
Lukas (W)
Danika (Mo)
Redemptor Karl (Mo)
Brutus (N)
Sheena (N)
Erys Vasburg (Me)
Nika (A)
Professor Gai (Rt)

Luxon Henchmen:
Seaguard Eli (W)
Aurora (R)
Seaguard Gita (Mo)
Daeman (R)
Seaguard Hala (Me)
Argo (E)
Panaku (A)
Aeson (Rt)

Other Canthan Henchmen:
Talon Silverwing (W)
Yuun (R)
Zho (R)
Jamei (Mo)
Taya (Mo)
Sister Tai (Mo)
Su (N)
Lo Sha (Me)
Headmaster Vhang (E)
Kisai (E)
Kai Ying (E)
Emi (A)
Mai (A)
Chiyo (Rt)

Total Profession Amounts:
Warriors: 3
Monks: 6
Rangers: 4
Necromancers: 3
Mesmers: 3
Elementalists: 4
Assassins: 4
Ritualists: 3

So what to do with all these heroes? Well, some we need to remove, some we need to offer as "Luxon-only" and "Kurzick-only" professions. And some we can have as mutually exclusive (between Kurzick/Luxon).

Here are my suggestions:

Warrior: Talon Silverwing (obtained on the way to Zen Daijun, as a reward from Looking for Trouble)
Monk:Seaguard Gita|Redemptor Karl (at Cavalon/House Zu Heltzer) (Exclusive)
Ranger:Zho (obtained on the way to Zen Daijun, as a reward from Looking for Trouble)
Mesmer:Erys Vasburg/Seaguard Hala (complettion of Eternal Groove/Gyala Hatchery) (Exclusive)
Necromancer:Brutus/Sheena (Kurzick-only hero) (Obtained at Vasburg Armory) (Mutually exclusive to each other)
Elementalist: Argo (Luxon-only hero) (Obtained at Leviathan Pits)
Assassin: Nika (Obtained from To Tahnnakai Temple)
Ritualist: Aeson/Professor Gai (Obtained on Shing Jea Island) (Mutually exclusive)

That settles the Factions henchmen.

Step 5: Removal of the rest of the Henchmen.

With heroes added to Prophecies and Factions, and with the limit changed, there would be no need for what henchmen remain. So simply remove them from the game. (maybe have them as idle NPCs in towns, so that there is no to little need to remove them from the end-game areas *i.e. Droknar's Forge (explorable), Divine Path, Throne of Secrets, The Epilogue*).

In The End...

In the end, we have 6 Prophecies heroes, 8 Factions heroes, 8 Nightfall heroes, 10 Eye of the North Heroes, and 8 core heroes. Of each profession we have:

Warriors: 5
Rangers: 5
Monks: 5
Mesmers: 5
Elementalists: 5
Necromancers: 5
Ritualists: 3
Assassins: 2
Dervishes: 3
Paragons: 2
Total: 40 heroes in total. A nice even number.

And with that, ends the suggestion. Please no flames, trolls, spam, or "7 heroes is imba" (prove it if you believe it so much! And keep in mind that 8 players would be smarter and have more skills*PvE-only skills*!)

Demonstar · Sep 12, 2008, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I like this idea, but it's a bit impractical. The hero cap is there for a reason.

silavor · Sep 12, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Really, what reason? I still haven't heard one legitimate argument for the hero cap, despite the debate going on for months already.

To the OP, I like the idea, but what's wrong with having Dunkoro as a monk? No new player with just nightfall is ever going to get enough ritualist skills to make him worthwhile. Nightfall has no assassin hero anyway, so why should we have a rit at all?

Konig Des Todes · Sep 12, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

The reason why I turned Dunkoro to a Ritualist is because there are two monk heroes, and since both are in the storyline, we cannot remove them at this point in time.

And Nightfall does have an assassin hero, Zenmai, you just need Factions as well to get her. Although I wouldn't be against removing Zenmai as well. But we would still be stuck with two monks, Dunkoro and Tahlkora. And of Dunkoro and Tahlkora, Dunkoro fit being a ritualist better.

Of course, Master of Whispers would make a better ritualist (I think he was planned to be a rit but was changed to be a necro when Razah was turned to a rit from being "variable")

draxynnic · Sep 12, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Problem is, you're then saddling players with a required hero that they may not have skills for.

My general response to this suggestion basically boils down to 'would have been better than what we have now, but probably isn't worth it to remake things now'. At the very least, you'd need to refund anything that's put into the heroes you're proposing to remove - and removing Norgu and Goren would also require removing or at least significantly reworking the quests that require them.

That said... hypothetically speaking, Tahlkora is a follower of Lyssa. Much as I approve of Odurra actually being useful, what about making Tahlkora a Mesmer? It'd only require a modification to her dialogue in her opening quests, and even that might be avoided by having her start with a /Mo secondary...

Konig Des Todes · Sep 12, 2008, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Hmm, yes that's true. And I just looked over Tahlkora's dialogues on the wiki page. There are not a lot of things that would need changing. So making Tahlkora the mesmer and keeping Dunkoro as a monk, while removing Zenmai would work just fine.

And, draxynnic, what would happen is that all runes, insignias, and weapons on the heroes would be moved to the inventory (and if the inventory gets full, on first log on, they could go to a box similar to the one that shows up after a mission *when you don't pick up everything reserved for you*).

And it's not like a lot of quests have been removed in the past. This would just serve as one of the "big monthly updates" if it were implemented (and it would be implemented little by little, like removal of quests, removal of heroes, addition of henchmen as heroes, removal of henchmen).

Anyways, I'm gonna update the OP with the tahlkora as the mesmer and removal of Zenmai.

draxynnic · Sep 12, 2008, 04:52 AM // 04:52

The pop-up box could still end up with people losing stuff if their inventory is clogged enough at the time it happens.

As for quests... what quests have been removed after release? The only ones I can think of are the event related quests (most of which return when the event recycles, but those involving the Luxon and Kurzick refugees are notable examples) and the original Gain Zenmai and Gain Olias quests. The quests requiring Norgu and Goren also, between them, net enough trade contracts between them to trade for a gem.

A better solution than simply removing them might be to have Norgu and Goren generate as NPCs in the appropriate zone while the quest is active, but that might cause frustration if they get themselves killed during a quest unless they're made to respawn.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 12, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

That would suffice for the quests that are not for gaining them as heroes. The few quests that are there for recruitment would have to be removed still. But yes, Norgu and Goren can be turned into Allied NPCs that respond after death (like the NPCs in EN).

As for the items, with 5 heroes being removed, there would be a maximum of 20 items per character, which, with a full inventory would net with 8 items lost. But that is only with 2 weapons and 10 insignias/runes on all 5 heroes and the inventory being full.

To prevent this, the size of the unclaimed items box could be increased to 4 by 5, making 20 spots, to prevent any lost items.

draxynnic · Sep 12, 2008, 05:56 AM // 05:56

The problem isn't the size of the unclaimed items box - I have a vague memory of it actually going to multiple pages when necessary, although I may be wrong. If I am, then the following scenario gets even worse.

The problem is where the stuff gets put afterwards. Some people run their inventories pretty close to the line - for instance, I tend to keep my spare inventory slots in the Xunlai rather than on individual characters (so when I play a character, I fill the Xunlai out of my character's inventory and I'm ready to go). I hadn't even thought of the possibility of the unclaimed items box getting filled (that would just make it worse), but that you'd have to find enough room to put all that stuff before logging that character out. If someone with that inventory system messed it up and logged in with the Xunlai already full of items from another character, then they'd be completely stuck - they'd either lose all the items in the unclaimed box without compensation, or have to dispose of one of their other items to even get the chance of selling what's in the unclaimed box.

gremlin · Sep 12, 2008, 06:27 AM // 06:27

I don't like the idea of changing the class of existing heroes it puts many players in an impossible position.
Especially those who have customised the armour and not just added skills runes and weapons although that's bad enough.

You would have to plan along the lines of I have Healer A as my main hero.
Healer A becomes a Ritualist so Healer B becomes my Healer and all the armour weapons and skills transfer over, no problem with customisation as they are either none customised or customised to my character anyway.
But wait I have 14 characters and they all have heroes , see the problem ?

So by all means change Henchmen to heroes but give them a decent skillset to start with.
Henchmen are worse that useless when added to a party with 2 or more humans.
They are ok with one human as they go where he goes and attack what he attacks.
X humans go X ways and attack X number of targets henchmen just follow order and counter order and seldom do anything productive.

2 Humans with 3 heroes each could form an effective party of 8 good enough for almost all pve areas.
1 human with 3 heroes and some henchmen backup is also pretty good for many pve areas.

I know its not the main part of your thread but you mentioned it, more heroes may well be something tested in gw1 prior to gw2s release better to try it out here than in gw2.
Assuming that something along those lines is reversible if proved really bad.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 12, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

If someone with that inventory system messed it up and logged in with the Xunlai already full of items from another character, then they'd be completely stuck - they'd either lose all the items in the unclaimed box without compensation, or have to dispose of one of their other items to even get the chance of selling what's in the unclaimed box.

A head notice of when it will be implemented plus, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, you can switch items out between the unclaimed items box and your inventory - I know you can between weapons/storage and the inventory, not positive about the unclaimed items box. If you cannot, you can always add heroes that have two-handed weapons and no off-hand (or no weapons at all) and put weapons on those heroes until you are full. You can do the same with your character and off-hands.

There would be plenty of for-warning and ways to prevent any loss with items from the heroes. You would just have to sell the runes/insignias, something that is cheap to get back anyways. With a few exceptions (and those exceptions you wouldn't sell).

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

I don't like the idea of changing the class of existing heroes it puts many players in an impossible position.
Especially those who have customised the armour and not just added skills runes and weapons although that's bad enough.

The runes on Tahlkora would be moved to the inventory if and only if they are monk-only runes. You don't lose them, you don't use up to ten salvaging uses, you just move them onto another monk that you will get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

You would have to plan along the lines of I have Healer A as my main hero.
Healer A becomes a Ritualist so Healer B becomes my Healer and all the armour weapons and skills transfer over, no problem with customisation as they are either none customised or customised to my character anyway.
But wait I have 14 characters and they all have heroes , see the problem ?

It would be a little bothersome when you have to get it done on multiple characters (and why does anyone need 14 characters for PvE? O.o I honestly cannot understand why people have more then 10 PvE characters... one per profession is max that should be had), but it would be a one-time process for each character that already has Tahlkora. Those that don't, won't go through that annoyance. And once it's done, it's done.

IllusiveMind · Sep 12, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Tl; dr. But your suggestion is pretty much complex. Sounds exciting but I got another idea. Why don't we suggest to implement some template builds made into henchies? IE.

Let's say you talk to Devona at the outpost. Her dialog goes something like:

"Hammer meet idiot, Idiot meet hammer"
"Etc etc..."

Then you have 2 or 3 options, which they include:
Devona I would like you to go as a "Charge Sword" build.
Devona I would like you to go as a "Shock Axe" build.
And so on...

That way when you accept Devona into your party you will have a better henchie with more flexible options for builds.

newbie_of_doom · Sep 12, 2008, 07:57 AM // 07:57

loldelete heroes why

Konig Des Todes · Sep 12, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by IllusiveMind

Tl; dr. But your suggestion is pretty much complex. Sounds exciting but I got another idea. Why don't we suggest to implement some template builds made into henchies? IE.

Let's say you talk to Devona at the outpost. Her dialog goes something like:

"Hammer meet idiot, Idiot meet hammer"
"Etc etc..."

Then you have 2 or 3 options, which they include:
Devona I would like you to go as a "Charge Sword" build.
Devona I would like you to go as a "Shock Axe" build.
And so on...

That way when you accept Devona into your party you will have a better henchie with more flexible options for builds.

Although I won't disagree with this idea, I think mine, although more complexe and would be a true "monster of an update" (we all remember those words still, right?), my idea would be more flexible with builds and would remove something that is now nearly unneeded. Henchmen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

loldelete heroes why

Even numbers. Not too many heroes. (5 of the core professions is enough, do you want there to be 6 of those professions?) I would be fine with sticking with 3 heroes per profession, but that would require MUCH more work, especially with Devona and co.'s lore relevance. (remember, if GW wasn't a RPG, we'd be playing as those five

) So keeping it more simple, with a total of 30 heroes, 3 each profession, you'd have to remove even more (as there are already 3 monks, necros, wars, rangers, eles) and then add just 5 heroes, which would then make the amount of heroes between campaigns even more unbalanced.

In other words, delete these 5 heroes, change one hero's profession, and have 40 heroes in the end, to have a LOT less work to do.

zelgadissan · Sep 12, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

I have to admit I love the idea, but I can explain in three words why it will never happen - Mhenlo and Factions.

If I'm reading this right, all henchies would be removed and you would basically start with the core heroes, correct? This would completely screw over a lot of the plot of Factions, namely Vizunah Square, when all of the core heroes suddenly "show up" from the Foreign quarter. If you don't start with the core heroes, then you'd basically be forced to team up with other players on Shing Jea - which I suppose may not be a bad idea to force people to realize why seven heroes are required. Also, it might just be my preference but I hate when missions force you to bring a specific hero, and Mhenlo is in just about every single mission - and a handful of quests - from Vizunah onward. It wouldn't be a huge hassle since I'd be taking monks anywhere anyway, but still. Oh, and they'd have to start banishing heroes when fighting Shiro, but that's just an afterthought and not really a problem for this.

Personally I think this is one of the best and well thought out ways of implementing the seven hero idea, but when the process involves basically rewriting an entire campaign, I don't see it happening. A+ on the effort though, and hopefully something like this full customization will exist for GW2.

zwei2stein · Sep 12, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

All that reshuffling and stuff ... don't fix what aint broke. ...

Shadowhaze · Sep 12, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Interesting ideas. I kind of like the idea of having the old Proph chars as heroes (Mhenlo, Aiden, etc.), but as mentioned, that might mess up the story a bit.

And removing Acolyte Sousuke? Aww, I would miss him. XD

But I'm actually alright with the ones there are now...heck, some of them hardly see the light of day now. Poor things.

(I just wish you could arrange them. lol)

Template builds for henchies? That could be interesting as well.

gremlin · Sep 12, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

A head notice of when it will be implemented plus, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, you can switch items out between the unclaimed items box and your inventory - I know you can between weapons/storage and the inventory, not positive about the unclaimed items box. If you cannot, you can always add heroes that have two-handed weapons and no off-hand (or no weapons at all) and put weapons on those heroes until you are full. You can do the same with your character and off-hands.

There would be plenty of for-warning and ways to prevent any loss with items from the heroes. You would just have to sell the runes/insignias, something that is cheap to get back anyways. With a few exceptions (and those exceptions you wouldn't sell).

The runes on Tahlkora would be moved to the inventory if and only if they are monk-only runes. You don't lose them, you don't use up to ten salvaging uses, you just move them onto another monk that you will get.

It would be a little bothersome when you have to get it done on multiple characters (and why does anyone need 14 characters for PvE? O.o I honestly cannot understand why people have more then 10 PvE characters... one per profession is max that should be had), but it would be a one-time process for each character that already has Tahlkora. Those that don't, won't go through that annoyance. And once it's done, it's done.

Your right 10 heroes was plenty and I only play with 4 most of the time anyway lol.
The extra characters came when I was going for the bonus mission pack I bought a couple each month till I qualified.
They now stand around certain towns as trader/mule characters.

januscht · Sep 12, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

i made my mind right away when i read "Removal/Change of some heroes", i dont think is a good idea, i like all my heros as they are , well maybe not vekk nor norgu >_>, but meh, i like Tahi AS monk

this kind of changes wont be seen on gw... ever :S

/not signed

Konig Des Todes · Sep 12, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

I have to admit I love the idea, but I can explain in three words why it will never happen - Mhenlo and Factions.

If I'm reading this right, all henchies would be removed and you would basically start with the core heroes, correct? This would completely screw over a lot of the plot of Factions, namely Vizunah Square, when all of the core heroes suddenly "show up" from the Foreign quarter.

Different campaigns get the core heroes at different points. Prophecies get them in Ascalon to Kryta, Factions get them after Vizunah Square, Nightfall gets them at Consulate Docks.

Quote:

If you don't start with the core heroes, then you'd basically be forced to team up with other players on Shing Jea - which I suppose may not be a bad idea to force people to realize why seven heroes are required.

This is what I was thinking, but I was trying to get it so that you can get at least one hero early. It ended up being 3 heroes on Shing Jea (Aeson/Gai would be first) Looking at the missions and primary storyline, you only really need a full party from the second mission on. First mission, you have a lvl 10 and lvl 20 ally, before it's simple things that can be soloed, between mission 1 and mission 2, you have a bunch of allies in your party. But it would be a good thing to force people to party up like in Pre-searing.

Quote:

Also, it might just be my preference but I hate when missions force you to bring a specific hero, and Mhenlo is in just about every single mission - and a handful of quests - from Vizunah onward.

I was actually thinking, because of missions like Vizunah Square and Arborstone, when he comes and goes, that he would be a "this hero is not allowed" instead of "this hero is required"

Quote:

Personally I think this is one of the best and well thought out ways of implementing the seven hero idea, but when the process involves basically rewriting an entire campaign, I don't see it happening. A+ on the effort though, and hopefully something like this full customization will exist for GW2.

The thing is, you only remove a couple handful of quests, change a small handful of dialogue, change the Norgu/Goren "required" quests to add a NPC of them and change some quests that have Devona and co in them (in prophecies) to only spawn NPC versions of them when they are not in the party. Then have the "this hero is not allowed in the mission" in Factions. Then of course, the removal of heroes/henchmen and addition of heroes and quests to get them/deal with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowhaze

Interesting ideas. I kind of like the idea of having the old Proph chars as heroes (Mhenlo, Aiden, etc.), but as mentioned, that might mess up the story a bit.

I was going to put more work into it, by getting a list of all the quests that would be needing change and why, but I was half asleep when making this, so I just pushed it aside.

Quote:

And removing Acolyte Sousuke? Aww, I would miss him. XD

I was considering moving Sousuke and Jin to Factions or Core but, Cynn and Aiden, and Argo/Zho (I personally prefer Argo/Zho, but it can be changed to choose between sets like other heroes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Your right 10 heroes was plenty and I only play with 4 most of the time anyway lol.
The extra characters came when I was going for the bonus mission pack I bought a couple each month till I qualified.
They now stand around certain towns as trader/mule characters.

you only needed to buy 3, which would give you a max of 11 slots >.> where did the extra three come from (don't bother answering, it's off-topic).